FALLACY UNMASKED

In this first episode, Lucas Cecilio unpacks the tension between ministry, entrepreneurship, and everyday work—and why the sacred vs. secular divide is a lie that’s quietly shaping how many Christians view their jobs.

Drawing from Scripture, church history, and his own journey as a pastor and entrepreneur, Lucas challenges the Platonic worldview that treats the spiritual as “higher” than the material and shows how the incarnation, Eucharist, and a biblical theology of work all insist that God calls every believer—plumber, influencer, student, founder—into meaningful, fruitful labor. 

In this episode, we explore:

• Why so many Christians feel a disconnect between Sunday faith and Monday work
• How a “spirit good, matter bad” mindset still influence us today
• A biblical theology of work from Genesis, the incarnation, and the priesthood of all believers

If you’re a young entrepreneur, creative, student, or professional who loves Jesus but has never been shown how your work and calling actually fit together, this conversation is for you. Hit follow and join us as we rethink work, calling, and entrepreneurship in the presence of God.

More resources, transcripts, and ways to connect: www.visionaryhuddle.com
Follow the Visionary Huddle on Instagram: @visionaryhuddle
Follow Lucas on Instagram: @lucascecilio1

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It goes back to a mindset where work was interpreted and badly so. It was interpreted that work was curse. Maybe you're listening to me, you're like, no, but what about Genesis? Go get your Bible right now, go read Genesis. Work was not the curse. Ibuprofen is the curse. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The back pain is the curse. For sure. The plotting, the trying to make something work in itself is right. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. We are so excited. I woke up at 5 in the morning today, which is something rare, but something that I'm trying to do more often. Woke up, drove to a studio at our church, and I'm very excited for this morning. Some friends of mine have been asking me, have been encouraging me, nudging me in the direction of starting a podcast. So here we are today. This is the first episode of whatever I'm gonna call this, the Lucas A City Podcast, the whatever podcast. I'm sure we're gonna come up with a name, but I'm excited to be here. One thing that I that I like to think, it's it's always easier for me to engage in conversations with friends of mine. They they know me and they can trigger me in the right thinking, if that makes sense. So I was thinking like how, if I were to do a podcast, would I like to be by myself, just talking in front of a camera or just with a mic in my hand by myself? And I realized that is not really who I am. I'm very much of a of a people person. I like people, I like being in deep conversations with friends. Uh, in fact, on the way here, I I was chatting a little bit with a friend of mine from Brazil, and I was remembering how we would actually drive to his, I would actually drive to his house almost probably every other day. You know, he lived about 15 minutes away. There was like this nice hot dog cart nearby who gets some hot dogs together just talking to one, two in the morning. I miss those days, but that's who I am. So, and with that being said, I thought about a structure of podcast where I have a friend that can ask me, that can just ask me questions, and based on that question, I will freestyle for five minutes, ten minutes, two minutes, or a whole hour based on that question alone. But I think that's important for me. So today I'm very excited. I actually have two friends with me. Uh, one is the Marcus, he's our producer. Very thankful for you, bro. Thanks for doing this. And then I have my friend Tayu. Tayu actually just became a youth pastor, I think two weeks ago. I'm excited for him. He loves the church, loves the Lord and his church and what he's doing in his church. So he he knows me well. He's going to be throwing some some good stuff, bro. Thanks for being here. I appreciate you, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Absolutely, bro. You know me. It's it's an honor, Lucas. And uh I am I'm just grateful. You know, I'm grateful for our friendship. I'm grateful for the ability to wrestle through some things in a way that's authentic and honest and genuine. And uh one thing that I really matters to me about you that I honor in real time is you are far from a narcissist, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I think in everyone there has like the little narcissistic narcissistic tendencies, maybe, but that's just not who you are. You know, you're not trying to create a platform so you so you can have your ego stroked. You're genuinely wrestling. There's there's usually a couple different ideas that are working within you that you're working through, that you're going before the Lord and trying to humbly um request for his wisdom, his guidance, his instruction. You know, the the funny thing about um, you know, I have my own perspective and feelings about podcasts, and there's a million podcasts out there, but uh I'm curious, I genuinely am curious, what is is the gap that you think this conversation is filling?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Oh man. Well, let's start with this. I believe actually I mean I I believe, but this is a matter of fact that there is a reality of there is this there is this like maybe a better way to frame the question is what's the tension? Ah man, I love the word tension.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Here's the thing here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I'm trying to think of the best word in the Greek mindset, there was this way of perceiving the world where the world is divided into different realms. So if you guys are into philosophy and uh I don't know if every high school would teach that, but I remember learning this in high school back in Brazil. Uh there's Plato's cave, right? You have Plato, and he has this idea of you know, even the word idea itself, right? There's this ideal chair or the ideal table in the realm of ideas, and then out of the realm of ideas, which is spiritual for Plato, uh the something would be birthed in the material realm, and a pl what we would call a Platonic worldview uh was birthed out of that. You have this you have this dichotomy where you have the spiritual world versus the material world, and in Plato's view, in the view of the Greeks, the spiritual world would be good or better superior than the material. So the material is bad, the super the spiritual is good for the Greeks. That's a pagan worldview. One of the craziest things that God ever does is that he becomes matter, and that's crazy. Why? Because God is spirit, he's in the spiritual world, therefore superior. But wait a minute, he takes upon matter, he takes matter upon himself. Now he's material, he's perfectly overlapping with the material world. But I thought the material world was bad. Well, God calls it good. Here's the biggest tension I have. The biggest tension I have is that I I I I'm an entrepreneur. I was born an entrepreneur. I've always had big vision, always, my whole life. I remember when I was 14 years old, uh probably younger than that, I was 12 years old. And uh I remember my friend's backyard was just huge, and I remember sitting on the on the ground, the floor with a piece of how do you call it? Like the the like the thing that you will write on a board, like the chalk.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Right? Like I had a piece of chalk in my hand, like on my hand, and I was just writing the blueprint, at least in my mind, of what an ice hockey center could look like. Like what did I was in middle school? Right. So that has always been my mind, but here's the tension that I sit in. As an entrepreneur, and I love podcasts, I listen to a lot of podcasts. There's not a lot of people talking about entrepreneurship from a place from a theological mindset. Not a lot. I don't know a lot of theological. I in fact, I'm trying to remember on somebody who is talking about being an entrepreneur's an entrepreneur from theological lenses. I don't see that. And I believe one of the reasons is because this Platonic worldview has I wanted to say slowly, but I don't think it was, I don't think it was a slow process. I think, in fact, that was present since the first century. One of the one of the very things that even a guy like the apostle John is confronting, I believe in in the in the first letter of John, he is confronting the Gnostics, and one of the mindset of the Gnostics was that they they thought that Jesus could not, they thought that the guy that was dying on the cross was either a ghost or he was somebody else, but he couldn't be Jesus. Why? Because uh the whole material thing like matter that it doesn't it didn't make sense, and John is confronting that big time. My point is from the beginning of the church, you have this duplicity, you have this uh a bifurcated worldview in which the spiritual it's it's good, that the material not so good, and therefore, and here's attention therefore, people that work in ministry are somehow in a higher scale of the quote unquote social hierarchy uh uh uh of the sons and daughters of God, which is nonsense. That is a platonic mindset that is pagan to the core. God calls every son and daughter as a priest. So, no matter what you could be a plumber listening to me right now, you could be a social media influencer listening to me right now, you could be a high school student listening to me right now. Let me tell you something. You are called by God, equally so. You are called by Jesus Himself to be uh to bear fruit, to be fruitful, to multiply, to subdue. We can get to that later, but you are called by God to do good things, and every son and daughter is called, and there's no separation. So I sit on that tension big time because I have been, for lack of a better word, flirting with the entrepreneurial space for years, and honestly, I have always felt lonely. Yeah, why? Because I'm I'm a pastor and I love the church, and I'm uh dude, I'm literally in seminary right now. Like I love, I'm a I'm a I'm a theology guy, yes, you know, but I'm also an entrepreneur and I've always been one. But because I've always felt I've always been in the church space working with the church, I've been working with the church technically since I was 17 years old. I just turned 32 yesterday, so it's 15 years. Happy birthday. I appreciate that. 15 years, right? Pretty much half of I mean half of my life, pretty much, in the church space. So, how can I merge that with entrepreneurship? Uh-uh. Is there a room for it? Well, there is. If the material world is good, because God made it good, then well, there's something about entrepreneurs that could literally help to redeem things for the glory of God, anyways. I sit on that tension all the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

No, that's that's real, man. It it's funny. Uh, I I don't I don't care to highlight too much of my story. I just what you're saying is really resonating with me. You know, I've I grew up in the church, and one of the things that you saw, sometimes it even felt like it was almost taught or reinforced or whatever, is there is seems like there's a disconnection from Sunday to Monday.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

You know, like it seems like there is like Sundays is the holy day. Sunday is where we we get dressed up and we hear the word and and you listen, and it's like if you're not one of those people who's leading a small group or on the prayer team or on the worship band or happens to have the mic and and exegeting the text, then then oh then I guess you know God didn't have that great of a call for you as far as the kingdom. But I I I'm curious, I wonder why you think that separation is placed. Do you think would you connect it to that separation uh in that you were kind of alluding to? Or I'm curious. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Like we should go deeper on that. 100%, 100%. The the biggest reason is because we separate the spiritual world and the material world. We separate, for example, uh, people would see disciplines such as prayer or worshiping. Uh, I I don't even, I'm not even I'm let me change the word singing praises. You're praying, you're singing praises to God, you are serving in the church. So, for example, people would see the building itself as a almost like God is more in the building than he is with you when you were driving your car, even though God himself said, I've never I never wanted and and I never wanted to build my I've never wanted to dwell in buildings made by bricks. I dwell in the hearts of human beings. Like not even, I mean, the highest of heavens cannot contain God Himself. He somehow is able to mystically dwell in his people, but but of course, mystically, God is more present in the Sunday gathering, in the sense of I cannot partake on the Eucharist, I cannot partake on the I cannot myself just ordain my own little bread and and wine or or grape juice uh uh and partake on my own because communion or Eucharist itself, the way that it was designed is for the saints together to partake together. So, in a way, God is more, he is definitely more uh uh imparting grace into his people at the moment of Eucharist, at the moment when the saints are gathered together around the world, at the moment that the saints are gathered together, lifting up the sacrifice of praise. Definitely, however, from that that place was destined to empower mankind to go into the world on Monday. But if we think that we are like it's almost like this people, they they they retrieve out of the presence of God, so now they are less in the presence to live their normal lives from Monday through Saturday, and then on Sunday they come to church in order to get that that that that that that that hype that that in order to get pumped up a little bit, to go to work, to have motivation on Monday morning, which is nonsense. We are empowered on Sunday in the gathering, and by the way, I mean I'm very I'm a charismatic guy, but I mean a little side note. I was reading a book, and please, if if you were you're listening to this, write this down. There's a book called uh Water from a Deep Well. Oh my goodness. I had to read for a class in seminary last semester. Water from a deep well. They go, the author goes down this literally this rabbit hole on the spiritual formation, uh, on the spiritual formation movement from the first century all the way to uh evangelicalism. And one thing that I I literally started weeping when I was reading the the chapter on the sacraments, and the author was explaining of how uh even the design of the cathedrals with those big, long, massive windows, in the minds of the builders of the cathedrals, they are building so during mass, the light that is shining through those windows, almost like God Himself is overlapping that light and shining upon the congregation. I wept because I was like, oh my gosh, I've been a Christian my entire life, and I never I never saw things this way. There's so much in the Christian tradition, no wonder, no wonder, at least in the United States, and now I'm seeing that in Europe the church is going in France like crazy. There's so much going on. I I think it's too early to call a revival, but there's definitely a renewal going on, and people are excited, and there's a reason why a lot of kids, a lot of kids are leaning towards more traditional things of Christianity. Why? Because our tradition, I'm sorry, but it's the best tradition in the world, it's a full tradition. It's so rich. So of course we come on Sunday, we take on the on the communion, but that is to empower us to live like Christ in the world. Once we wake up on Monday morning, that is something that we cannot miss. So there's a huge gap because we separate the world, spiritual things, natural things. Dude, that was not even a mindset for the Hebrews in the Old Testament. They couldn't see the world that way. It's all intertwined, God is overlapping every space. Man, I'm excited, bro. I hope that answered that question. Uh uh, brother.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

I I love this.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

I love this topic, bro.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Well, it's it's it's one that's that love is clear, but it's to me what you're describing is a paradigm shift, you know, like there's and there's power in paradigm shifts. There's power in hearing hearing something where you're like, oh, you you don't have to do it, doesn't have to look like that. You know, what if what if you could can go to work and the power of God can move in and through your thoughts and your creativity and birth different things? What if there's connections around the quarter? What if there's what if there's blessing in business deals? You know, what if there's opportunity in in just the people in front of you, bro? I I I love that. I I think there's so much that that we can unpack. I I I really want to, you know, this it is the beginning of a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

And I think it it could be really important to try to frame what like what's the cost of a conversation like this not happening? What's the cost of people not making that paradigm shift? What's the cost of people staying in their in their current thought process and not maybe maybe thinking about work in a different light?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

It's a great question. Here's the cost. I hear a lot of people, not one, not two, a lot, because I hear in personal conversations that I have with people, uh, and I get to talk to wonderful people. So I I I I get to to take a look into other people's brains a little bit, which is a fascinating thing. But I hear a lot of people personally, and I also hear in other in like in other podcasts, stories and the mindset of people that literally they see their work as number one, means to pay the bills, right? Like it's it's means to pay the bills. Number two, means to pay for a lifestyle. So once I am able to cover bills and lifestyle, then I don't have to work. So there's a lot of people, especially in our generation, the millennial generation, and the Gen Z is probably even more now. There is this I this desire to retire at 40 years old and be sipping margaritas in the Bahamas, chilling. What are we gonna do for decades? For the decade, you know, let's say I retire at 50. Right. What the heck am I gonna do for 30, 40, 50 years? 60. What am I gonna be doing for all those decades? Just retire now, I don't have to work anymore. That and again, it goes back to a mindset where work was interpreted and badly so. It was interpreted that work was curse. Maybe you're listening to me, you're like, no, but what about Genesis? Go get your Bible right now, go read Genesis. Work was not the curse, ibuprofen is the curse. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The back pain is the curse. For sure. The the the the plotting, the the trying to make something work, and it's difficult because you are distracted. Maybe you are listening to me right now, you have dreams and aspiration, but you also struggle with ADHD, and it's difficult for you to focus, and you know that you need focus in order to get that idea off the paper. I feel you. That is the curse. Work is divine. God created human beings to work. Yeah, so the cost of us not having this conversation is a generation of people. Maybe I'm speaking too hyperbolic, but it is a lot of people seeing their jobs as a means to pay the bills, pay for the lifestyle. Once you are able to cover all of them, you stop work, and your mind suffers atrophy because you were made to co-create with your God through your job. So that's the cost. Okay, so I that's a clip for. Instagram like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Clip it. I heard that man. Um okay, this is my mind is firing, and I have I have a bunch of different thoughts. But what I'm hearing is it seems like you're trying to show the value of connecting faith per se to our work? You know, it's like for a long time there's these words were like the secular and the sacred. But what if there's a way that those two, it sounds like right, are are to be connected. And I'm curious, would you call that something? Is that is that like how would you frame that thought process? Well how would you does that make sense for I'm trying to think through?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Here's the thing for the Christian, there is no secular anymore, it's all sacred. If you are if you are a follower of Jesus Christ, everything is sacred. One of the commandments, one of the assignments, the roles that God assigned to mankind in the garden, Genesis 1. Genesis 1, 26 through 28. He says, fill the earth and subdue it. What does fill the earth mean? Well, it look at every every square inch on this planet and fill it with my wisdom, my glory, my presence, my the elements of the kingdom of God, the excellences of the kingdom of God, the beauty of the kingdom of God, the truth of the kingdom of God. Fill every square inch of this planet. For the Christian, there's no secular. You were a nurse, you were a plumber, you were a high school student, you were a college student, you are an electrician, you are you are going to PCC for trade school, you are a police officer, you are a firefighter, you are a pastor. It doesn't matter what you do. And by the way, as a pastor, a lot of people, I used to think, I used to think that as a pastor, all that I would do is get coffee with people every day and preach. Dude, I honestly, like more than half of my job is administrative stuff. Yes. So if you were to look at it, I it sounds it's it's mundane if you will, if you if that if that makes sense. You're just doing work things. That is sacred work. Yes. If you are a barista and you were boring latte, dude, especially us from Portland, bro, like we got some great baristas here, man. For sure. Do the little uh latte art, then that's sacred work. You know, so does that the like does that answer? Did I answer that? I think so. I don't know. Did I miss into the question?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

No, no, no, no, I don't, because the heart of uh there's such a I think this transitions perfectly to my next thought. Is I think one of the things that you and I have talked about for some time is there are people around us who it seems like they've experienced different levels of success. And they worked and they put a ton of work in. And for some of those people, there's a level of emptiness that's attached to it. For sure, you know, and and I think I think you're kind of talking about this emptiness, like it's maybe trying to reframe it, seeing the the like embracing the grind, you know, and I think I think it might be helpful to hear a little bit of maybe, you know, there's two things going on. You're you're talking from a place you you mentioned your age, 32 years young. There's a lot that's happened in your 32 years. So maybe I I'd be curious to hear why now, like, why is this such an important thing for you? Where what from your youth maybe? What from what now and that you're reconciling, you know. Like I'd love to hear where is this passion being birthed from. And I'd also love to hear, I think, I think I'd love to hear, like, where are you going? You know, where are you wanting to go with all this?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Wow. That's a great question. Here's the thing. I my dad, he just retired a year ago, which is very exciting. My parents are trying to come to the States at least once a year. Our plan is for them to be here three to six months a year. That would be awesome. But my dad retired from the government, so he worked for the government for decades. Uh, my grandfather, on my dad's side, also worked for the government, but on my mom's side, he had a little coconut water business. And it was a salesman. My aunt is in sales to this day. My mom, uh, she, everything that she, if she needs to sell you sand, she'll sell you sand. She's a great salesperson. But none of us ever connected that with a way. We never connected that with entrepreneurship. We never realized that we all we were all entrepreneurs, we were all great at sales, but we were never we were not in that mindset because my dad works for the government, so the mindset was less entrepreneurial. If you think Brazil is not like it, there's way less people investing stock in the stock market in Brazil. There's less entrepreneurs in Brazil. There's so here's the thing. Let me sorry, let me rephrase that. There is a lot of entrepreneurs in Brazil that don't know that they are entrepreneurs because there's a lack of an entrepreneurship culture in Brazil. That's where I grew up. Now it's a little bit different because of the internet. So the internet is making the process way more democratic. So people are being like, oh my gosh, that's entrepreneurship. That's how I think. Therefore, I'm an entrepreneur. Great. Let me solve problems. Boom. They start companies, they create products, services. They are entrepreneurs and active, and actively so. I moved to the States in 2015, so 10 years ago, I was thinking like an entrepreneur without anybody looking at me and saying, Lucas, you are an entrepreneur. I did not grow up with people affirming that in me. And that's not that's not on them. It's just that we none of us grew up in that mindset. Yeah. It's changing now, but that's not how it was 10, 15 years ago. So I was, but I needed somebody to wake up in my heart. To make a really long story short, came to the States, studied theology, uh, Portland Bible College, graduated, met my wife, got married, been married for seven years. Our daughter is almost a year and a half now in December. Fantastic. I went back to school, so I'm getting, I'm a I'm a pastor, we are recording in the studio at Living Hope Fellowship. Pastor Jess Strickland, Brandon Strickland, Pastor Joshua Tanner, Ben Tanner. Oh my gosh. I mean, love these people. I'm I have one of the greatest privileges and honor in my life is to pastor high school students. Yes. So I I love this. But I went back to seminary, so I'm I'm at Western Seminary. Shout out to Western Seminary. 33.3% of my degree fulfilled, completed. 33.33333. But yes, sir, yes, sir. But here's a big trigger because I have been thinking about recording a podcast for a while, as I mentioned before. Uh uh now I understand the gifting that the Lord put in my heart to also be for an entreprene for entrepreneurship. I am an entrepreneur by nature, I really am. But then I was in a class, uh, it was this it was a spiritual formation class. I think it's uh uh the I think it was Christian Living, Dr. Andrew Pack, I believe. But then we had Dr. Chuck Connery, who is the president of Western Seminary, teaching one of the lectures, and he was teaching about a theology of work. Oh my goodness. Two hours of lecture that blew my mind, and basically what he did without knowing, because he didn't know, you know, like I didn't know him personally. So that was the first time hearing it, like hearing him. He gave flesh to the bones that had already been forming in my heart. That's literally what happened. I was thinking that way, but I needed, I needed a different I needed a different person. I needed, I needed flesh. Yeah, I needed flesh on those bones. Yes, so that so I'm hearing that lecture. I connected with that so much that I emailed him. I was like, Dr. Connery, I would love to get con I would love to get together with you, sir. Well, praise be to God that he emailed me back and we we got coffee. We got coffee three times already. We have a fourth one schedule that I'm very excited about. So he has been guiding me and coaching me and giving me material to study this theology of work. So I mean, uh now is the perfect time because I'm like, well, I've been thinking about this for a while. Uh I I I literally, my confirmation was let me talk to DeMarcus, because he's a fantastic producer. Uh let me talk to Tayu. Let's see if these guys would jump in and do this crazy project with me. If yes, then this is the timing. I guess this is the timing because we are here recording at six something in the morning. So let's go. Appreciate it, guys.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Man, uh part of I I think is important too. Obviously, this is a podcast, a conversation, and and you'll go back and forth and we'll wrestle through different ideas and and flesh out this theology of work idea that you're really passionate about.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

I imagine that there are stories that come across your mind. For sure. Stories that come from people. Yeah. There's people that are that are coming across your mind. An audience, for lack of better word. Yeah. People who you hope get a chance to listen to this. I would love to to hear who you do, who does Lucas Cecilio desire to pour into? Ha ha.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Great question. Well, to start, the two of you sitting in this room. So let's go tell you first, you. Uh you're 29 years young. Yeah, 29 years young. I love that verbiage. 29 years young. You're a youth pastor now, but you are also the founder of a nonprofit called Two Coins. Deep heart for the lost, but deep heart for entrepreneurs and business people as well. Yes. And you were for helping forming the next generation now as a youth pastor. Somebody like yourself that also sits in the intersection of entrepreneurship. Look at you. Like, dude, you could be in LA right now, you could be in New York City right now, tough. This guy, guys. I mean, we are not recording this. This dude has, I mean, one of the coolest styles in Portland, Oregon. I mean, he just like he doesn't belong in Portland, Oregon. It's like he should be in Chicago or something. Thank you. You know what I'm saying? You like that. I said Chicago on purpose. You like that. You like it. Yes, sir. I do. So somebody like yourself, definitely. Somebody like DeMarcus, who is also entrepreneurial. Yes. Who is extremely musically talented. Yes. DeMarcus has a project that I'm not even going to mention what the project is. But when he like when he literally showed me what he's working on and actively doing in his own life, I was like, dude, look at like taking like a little peek into his brain. I was like, dude, this is a like this is a million-dollar idea. Yeah. His response, I don't know if I want to make money with it.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Bro, who thinks like that? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

He does. Yeah, he does. And he's uh he's a husband and he's a father. Yes. And an entrepreneur and a musician. Yes. And loves the Lord. Yes. That's a second person. Here's a third person. I have some people, friends of mine in social media in Brazil, uh, in the US, in California. So people like that 24, 25, 26, 19, 20 year old Gen Zers making money in the social media space, but struggling to find structure. Struggling because a lot of the social media space is like, are you really, are you how much culture, how much flourishing culture is being created? For some people, a lot, for some, is just a fun little thing that you get to get paid a lot of money for it. What are you doing with that money? And you, if you if that's you and you are listening to me and that hit you, God God's calling you right now. There's something for you right now. I'm speaking to you. But what about somebody that just graduated from high school and is starting his trade journey to become a plumber or an elect or an electrician? They love the Lord, they're gonna be working a blue-collar job that often people would think. I mean, you're not preaching, you are not, you are working by yourself with your hands. Wait, let me tell you something. You are called by God, you are a priest of the living God, and I'm speaking to you, right? What about somebody like Anaya, a friend of like a friend of all of us, yes, that literally just released like he released a movie. He is a movie director. Yes, he's fantastic, the script writer, he's all of this stuff. So I'm in other words, I am speaking to both pastors, entrepreneurs who see in themselves the merge of both. Yeah, it's people like me, it's people that love this concept, it's people that they see that they it's people that they believe that they have a potential in their lives, they're so huge, but they feel that they are pro am I the only one thinking this way? This podcast for you. You are not the only one. Here we are talking about this stuff. It's like the whole Elijah, the prophet Elijah paradox. Oh Lord, I'm here all alone, dying by myself. And the Lord is like, come on, Elijah. There's 7,000 who did not bow down their knees to bail. Yes. So you are not alone if you're listening to us. This podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Hmm. Yeah, brother, that's real. That's real. I it's kind of honestly, I uh it's kind of awesome that I'm in this conversation right now. I have a lot of peace, I have a lot of rest, I have a lot of excitement, I have a lot of hope. I really do. And sometimes it seems like sometimes I'll have these moments where it's really easy for me to be doom and gloom. And I want to hear I want to hear what Lucas is hopeful about. That's what I want to hear. I want to hear what you are hopeful about.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

I'm gonna answer that in a very big way, in a very broad way. I believe I believe that prior to Jesus' comeback, a lot of people disagree with me, but I'll tell you what I believe. I believe that before Jesus returns or reappears, he's going to find a generation of Christians who were able to manage wealth for his glory and were never compromised. That is my biggest hope. Wow. I believe that we have yet to experience, we have yet to see a generation. Like, I'm not saying one person, one business owner, one billionaire out there that were able to no no no, I'm saying it's almost mainstream for Christians all over the world, not localized, all over the world. Christians that were able to make money for the glory of God, manage their money for the glory of God, and have kingdom perspective of their jobs. Uh, that is my biggest hope. We have not seen that yet. You think about it every time that money, power, influence is mixed, people uh most of the time they they they can handle it. I believe that before the Lord returns, he needs to find a generation that is able to handle it. Because that's a sign of maturity. Think about it in the New Testament. Jesus talks about money more than he talks about hell. Yeah, I think more than he talks about prayer, yeah. Because he uses because money is money reveals a condition of heart. Yeah. So if every time we receive money, this crazy, stupid con uh uh uh uh uh condition of evil is revealed. Wait a minute, I don't think we are ready. I think when God gives us all of this stuff that he promised, that that he that he that is available, that is available. When once that is released and we are able to handle it, that's a great sign of maturity, and perhaps that is one of the greatest signs that his bride is ready for the bridegroom.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

So wow, it's important to me to not gloss over that, you know. That's that's not a that's not a simple hope. That's a that's a generational hope. It is that's a hope that requires work, that uh that's a hope that requires intentionality, that's a hope that requires people. You know, you need community and friends. Man, I that's that's real. I I I want I want you to go deeper on one thing. There's because this is such a big hope, obviously that's gonna require time.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

And maybe this is too simple of a question, so I want you to quite frankly answer it however way you want to answer it. What do you think is the best use of time right now? You know, with in regards to work. You had mentioned this this theology of work that I imagine we've got to unpack at some time. You've you've talked about your childhood, you talked about how you're spending your time. You talked about your friends and people, like, do I need to go make more friends? Do I need to be in the word more? Do I need to sleep more? Do I need to eat more? Do I need to dream more? Do I need to journal? Like, what is a what are some something that's practical?

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Well, before we started recording, you brought up a chapter. Was that Psalm 90? One of the verses said, I believe the Psalm from Moses, it says, The Lord teach me how to count my days so I may acquire wisdom. I think that's the practical step. What does that mean to count my days? Well, there's a one of the one of the the it's two-dimensional. Maybe there's even more dimensions to it, I'm sure there is, but uh the two dimensions, the two dimensions that I do see is number one, teach me awareness, teach me to not live light so numb, going from one place to another, going from uh uh uh clocking, clocking in, clocking out, uh uh clocking in again, like so numb and go home and drive home and and sit and binge watch something on Netflix. Teach me to not live life like that. Teach me to be aware, not numb. All of the technology that we have today, honestly, dude, like think about it. When many people think about rest, they think about laying on the couch or watching something, even though that is not full of rest. It's not rest, it's not the most restful, rest-filled activity. May make us even more tired. Not saying that we shouldn't do it, I think it's cool, but not to fully rest. So I think you teach me how to count my days. Lord, teach me, keep me aware. Keep me, don't let me drop the ball of awareness, don't let me forget where where you have been in the past three hours of my life, in the past 30 minutes of my life. Let me live my life aware so I may acquire wisdom. Dimension number one. Dimension number two, teach me time management. How can I manage my time with adequacy in order to have margin for rest? But primarily, why we need margin for rest so we can work. It's not so we can, it's not the goal of rest is to empower us, energize us, equip us for work. By the way, I want to just push back in a little into something really quick. Uh, I think Sabbath is beautiful, I think it's fantastic, and I think we have to do it. But if we are not working six days a week, there might be a problem. There might be. Why? Because in Genesis you shall work six days and you rest a seventh. The reason I'm saying I'm not saying that you shouldn't take a two days uh uh uh break, that's not I'm saying at all. Like usually I take I take two days, but it's never two full days. I try to have one full Sabbath, but uh I'm always working. My point is there is a lot of people hearing about Sabbath, and dude, they are working part, they they work 15 hours, right? They work 20 hours a week, and now they want to wait like I mean let's work. Yes, so then the Sabbath, I mean, we we get to take this full on Sabbath. Sabbath to empower us for good work. I think there's time management that produces wisdom so we can utilize the gift of God to make one of God's gifts to man, meant to mankind, which is Sabbath, to energize us for every good work that we have in all the other six days.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

So I I I actually really appreciate that because you know I I started this this job that you had mentioned, um, and it's a pretty massive shift from shift for me. Yeah. I previously have been a computer engineer for the last four and a half years, and my schedule has just looked different. But in one of the things that people don't one of the things that was you I had to figure out, figure out growing up into this adulthood thing and and trying to do life is well, there's a lot of things that I need energy for, and there's a lot of things that are that are work that aren't necessarily that I'm not necessarily getting paid for, right? Like it's it's work to go and clean the bathroom. For sure. You know what I'm saying? It's absolutely it's work to so to to kind of frame your thought as I'm hearing it. Like I have a five-day work week schedule, but that sixth day is filled with laundry and doing the dishes and cleaning the home and taking care of myself. Like in the midst of all this stuff, I'm I'm trying to go to the gym. I'm trying to organize my life. I'm trying to make sure my clothes are clean and you know, I'm I'm and that is a lot of work. And one of my days off is actually spent time maintaining some of the friendships and relationships that that I don't get a chance to maintain normally through my work. You know, so it and that also is work. You're hearing people's stories, you're laboring with people, you're you're exchanging burdens, you know. So I just think there's so much truth to what you're saying. It's not part of how I I think Sabbath is growing in me is it's it's it's becoming less about uh Matthew or Theyu trying to just not think about anything.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

I'm really delighting in the Lord. That's it right there. That's it right there. In fact, the whole delighting thing. I think one thing, like one thing you said, like all of this is so huge because uh what I'm saying, it's not that everybody should be just actually working, you know, like your job and just hustling six days. It would be like for the regular person with a five, I technically I do have a five-day work week as well. I work six because I mean, I mean, a bunch doing a bunch of different things and school and all that. But ideally would be something like you have five days where you are working your job full-time, right? What if what if I work part-time? Well, take the other rest of that time to either get another job or to study, yeah, get a course, get books, go improve yourself, but work those five days. The sixth day is a day for you to run arounds, like do things, like go buy groceries, go do laundry, go work around the house. People trying to, I remember Jordan Peterson talking about this. People trying to change the world, but they cannot clean up the mess in their own bedrooms. What about you clean up your room first and then try to go around, try to dictate how the world should function? And then the Sabbath day is for three things. You touched on one, delight, delighting in what the Lord has given us. Number two, fully resting, it's appropriate at uh rest, and number three, worship, delight, rest, and worship. So I I I'm I'm with you, man. I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James? Yes, James what? James one, that's specifically verse 22. It's legit. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he looks like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets, but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person religious is worthless.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Bruh, you see James, man. Yeah, Jane, and you're that's your that's your middle name. It is my James.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

It is James, it is, but I I just think that what you're saying is so is so important, man. Like you you you're touching on some things that I think will really matter for people. The other thing I would throw out this uh this way as well is school is work, absolutely, you know. So if maybe you don't have the full-time job, but maybe you're in school, that's that's some a lot of good work. Of course, and maybe you maybe because of that you work a part-time job, you know, whatever it is. Absolutely. But I think there's a testament to doing.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Absolutely. The idea is don't spend your days in leisure and laziness playing video games on a couch while you should be doing something productive with your life, either full-time job or full-time school or half and half, but go do something. A lot of people are just vibing from Monday through Friday and requesting a Sabbath. Yeah, like, bro, if you are not working, you know, like studying hard, you know, like doing something. I mean, like, do you even need a Sabbath?

SPEAKER_01 49:43

You know? It's it part of why I I think of that verse and and trying to connect all this stuff, because like I said, my mind is just firing, is I have realized uh I enjoy my Sabbath more when I had a really full and busy and productive week. Exactly. When I when I went in and to use your your Genesis language, you know, when I when I did when I worked, intended and kept, like when I when I strove strove to do something, you know, if that's even a word, like when I it it allows me to really delight in the things of God because you know, I have that tendency anyway. I'm a pretty ambitious person. You know, I desire to do, I desire to create. And there were times in my life where I just didn't act on those things. And I think it what it really did is I felt like uh I feel like I I was not interacting with a part of myself, you know, I was like paralyzed by the fear of doing things. When it's like, oh, all I needed to go do was go do something. Yeah, I needed to go work, of course, you know, and then it was in the working where it was, oh, okay, I I I'm working, and now when I have this this dedicated space of delighting in the Lord, I can really like the worship is more organic, you know?

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Absolutely. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about this, and we can cover this on another episode, but uh in Proverbs there are verses that talk about how you're committing your work to the Lord and He established your plans. Yes, one of the the ways you you can translate the word plans has to do with the mind itself. In other words, you commit your work, and work it's not there, it has to do even the word has to do with the plotting of the land. So there's something about you committing your habits, you committing your daily disciplines, you committing your routine. Look at that, you committing your routine to the Lord, and the consequence, the byproduct of committing our routine to God is that He pays us back, He rewards us by speaking into our brains and establishing our very minds and thought processes. What does that mean? The key, I don't want to oversimplify this, but let me just say the key are for a lot of the anxiety that people are going through right now is work. And a lot of people, we have a generation that are sitting on the couch and not working, and no wonder that they are filled and full of this a bunch of mental stuff and stressed and lack of purpose, they don't know what, they don't know what to do, they lack clarity, they are anxious, they are sad, they are depressed. Here's a solution it's not therapy, it's work. Go work somewhere and work hard and your thoughts will be established.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yeah, I I think that because when I I think this is a great way to to transition maybe into a different part of our conversation, right? With it through a different episode, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

I love that, right? Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

And I think what you're saying is you're not being insensitive to the reality of those things. You're acknowledging anxiety is real. It is these things that you're dealing with is real, so you should have a real solution. And you know what the real solution is, it might be real work. Of course. It might be if you're feeling things that you don't like that you're feeling that you're wrestling with, maybe you should go do something, maybe that you don't like to do.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Dude, I swear.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Until you like to do it or until you get to go and do something you like. But it's it's that it's in that working, it's in that tilling, it's in that straining where it's as if like our we there's healing in that.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Some ways, 100%, you know, 100%. And by the way, as we come to an end, uh I'm not even saying that people shouldn't go to therapy, right? Like go to therapy. Yeah, absolutely. But my point is I think get this. One of the one of the degrees most sought after in our days is counseling. Is it perhaps because people are so individualistic and narcissist and looking at themselves so much? And they are, and because of that, one of the re one of the consequences in the brain for that is that we have all of these chemical imbalances and we are not seeing the world properly because we are looking, we are being so introspective, thinking about our own trauma, our own past, our own stuff, and we are forgetting our fellow men and the work that we can that we are called to do for the benefit of our fellow men. And that is in return, instead of paying us with the proper structure of mind, we are not receiving the the establishment of mind that would be the byproduct of working hard for the sake of others. Now we we we have uh we have condemned almost, we have destined a generation of people to be seeking after counseling and forgetting to work. And again, if you are struggling with anything uh mentor related, please go to therapy, go seek medical stuff, but also take a look at your life and and look around. What are you working for? Are you working for something good for the benefit of others? Because if you are not, go to therapy, but also turn on that key because that might be the key.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

Okay, okay, drop the mic, brother.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Are we done?

SPEAKER_01 55:31

I I I think I think I think we got somewhere. I really do. I think we got somewhere in this moment, and I kind of want to let this moment breathe. Uh dense conversation might require some re-listening to, honestly. Absolutely, might require some notes. Definitely, and hopefully it requires action, you know, because I actually think the the conversation itself is itself, you know, a call to action. Yeah. So I would love maybe to you have any closing passion points you would like to make? Anything that you would like to Yeah, so let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Uh I'm actually going to I'm gonna pray. I'll say something, I'll pray, and then that's nice. We'll see you guys next time. If you guys have any questions about this episode, if anything was triggered in your mind, you're like, man, I really wanna I wanna I wanna go deeper on this topic. Uh you can email me uh at Lucas at LucasCecilia.com. So my first at first and last name, LucasCecilia.com. Uh I would love to keep the conversation going. And uh yeah, let's do it wherever you are. If you are able to close your eyes and open your hands like you're receiving a gift from Jesus, I'd like to pray for you. Father God, I want to ask your presence to fill us, Lord. Fill every listener everywhere, wherever they are in the world. I pray for you to establish their thoughts. I pray for you to establish their minds as they work, as they do things for the sake of the flourishing of the world. I want to ask you for clarity. I wanna I want to ask you for a greater purpose. I want to ask you for you to help them to see their jobs as priests who present their bodies as living sacrifices right before you at your altar. Help them help us bless us today in Jesus' mighty name. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Amen, amen.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Thank you guys for listening to today's episode. We love and appreciate you guys. I will see you guys next time. Shout out to Tayu one more time for this conversation and to Marcus as well for producing. I'll see you guys.

unknown 57:59

Bye.